Munchkin Manifesto - Part 3

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Posts: 18

Munchkin Manifesto - Part 3

Post#1 » Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:21 pm

Perpetual Prospects

Treating a development phase on this server like the personal testing grounds for pet character builds has led us to the crux of this problem. No progress towards meaningful challenge design, character balance or freedom of choice can be achieved with this as the ulterior motive to feature implementation.
Is it being done to fulfill an inwardly facing need for self-satisfaction?

We need a course correction in design philosophy, one with a broader scope on creating an interesting challenge level for all classes.

Not one whose only recourse is to invalidate the experience of adequate challenge through complete obsolescence of character efficacy as demonstrated by the development of Beholder's Anti - Magic Cone and the Flesh Golem Aura flooding out non divine charisma based characters.

In addition we do not need a design outlook that only sees higher and higher numbers as the only option for character growth as demonstrated by the fine tuning of arcanes.
(Solo Bossified Ex 8 Belphegor Rift Kill by Unequipped Sorc/Pal)

Players and encounter designers need more fun tools to play with and players need an item system designed to create more options for players to choose not less.

I'd like to put forward the framework of item system that challenges players to reexamine their character through the addition of Mythic feats, not accessible to them under normal optimized build constraints. Targeting about 85% of the time.

Brumm's Item Generator is perhaps the most interesting aspect of RoTs reward systems yet is completely overshadowed/underutilized due to the power level and inflexibility of current set design.

Shamelessly aped the Magic the Gathering card collection and deck building experience. I propose we harness the random nature of the generator to allow players to create their own set bonuses based on the average ILR of the Randomly Generated Items they collect throughout the lifetime of treasure hunting.
You need to give them the ability to build things that are uniquely their own.

I've already confirmed with Brumm the existence of a handle that can discern randomly generated items versus cyborg made.

In this scenario a tradeable inventory Trinket with an activated ability similar to the DM event reward items scans the player for average ILR of Randomly Generated Items Equipped and generates attributes accordingly. Creating a one per character, tradeable, reforgeable seed for a character reroll or starting a new character.

If you get your random item system good it makes your game replayable.

An item system similar to this would encourage repeat play through, support new players in their acclimation, represent near infinite avenues of character efficacy customization and bring donations into the server. Forgive the crudity of this model.

(Avg ILR of RGIE * Number of RGIE/6) with something like this utilizing more RGIE than 6 would contribute more towards the Average ILR perhaps bridging the gap in break points at tier shifts.

Tier 1 ILR 1-6
Tier 2 ILR 7-13
Tier 3 ILR 14-20
Tier 4 ILR 21-27
Tier 5 ILR 28-34
Tier 6 ILR 35-39
Mythic Tier 40+

Tier 1 - Regen. one of the most important attributes for oddly mismatched fights when leveling where rollin 20s is the only thing important and the only thing keeping you from succeeding is impossibly long fights and the inability to rest.

Tier 2 - Randomized Status immunity that is mutually exclusive to the current set design Immunity suite but is not represented in the archetype endemically.

Tier 3 - Randomized Spell Based Clicky that Shores up one of many particular weaknesses in the archetype or provides general per rest utility.

Tier 4 - Randomized Spell Slots or Mid Ranged Utility Feat (Toughness/Combat Expertise/Armor Skin/Expert Tactician)

Tier 5 - Defensive Power Adjustment - Preparing the player for boss fights and farming other uniques.

Increase to Combat Endurance* for Martials/Warlock
*In this scenario the Combat Endurance feat for martials adds increased hps as well as the regen to shore up the gap between Caster free CON bonus and epic warding and access to heals.

Increase to defensive oriented spell school Caster level
Abjuration for Arcane
Transmutation for Nature
Abjuration/Conjuration for Cleric

Tier 6 - Offensive Power Adjustment - Increasing Mastery and Suppressive Power
Martial Randomized 1-3 AB addition and %Combat Lethality Boost
Offensive spell school Caster level increase
Warlock Ability Focus Blast, Ability Focus Invocation and Harsh Caster.

Mythic Tier - At the very end of the current RGI scale we encourage trying out something different with your character or rolling a new through the randomized addition of keystone feats that serve as a platform for exploring different builds or simply add more power to your current build.

Martial feat examples Shadow Strike, Epic Precision, Whirlwind, Caster's Bane, Shield Skin, Epic Dodge, Greater Two-Weapon Defense, Epic Damage Reduction

Casters feat examples are Practical Metamagic, Piercing Cold, Master Summoner or if they are particularly adventurous Daggercast, Bladesong Style, Divine Might.

At about 15% of the time no new feats are added in its stead a randomized increase in Defensive or Offensive power adjustment.

Design Challenges

Martial power handles need to be firmly in place beforehand with adjustments to Epic Combat Endurance to bridge the gap in mitigation between Epic Warding.

Hypothetical parameters for power metrics used above could again devolve into unnecessary arguments over number crunching and only serve to distract or ignore the roots of the problem laid out in part 1 and 2.

ILR is all over the place and currently doesn't scale past 30. A new lookup table would need to be created that references Brumm's Item Generator and scales accordingly. In the hypothetical scenario above Tier 6 unlocks when 6 or more pieces of individual randomly generated items have rolled at least one top tier RG Modifier on each of the pieces. Mythic tier would only unlock if 2 or more top tier RG mods spawn on all your randomly generated items. Gathering this many rare items should be a mythic feat.

A stop gap needs to be in place to ensure the randomly generated items maintain ILR Tier parity with the generated Trinket. Specifically not the exact RGIE configuration to allow for even more flexibility and freedom of item choice.

Discussion points for implementation
What should the donation cost be?
What should the cost (Gold/Shards) to reforge these tokens be?
How do we want to ritualize this process for RP purposes? I was imagining the Adventurer's equivalent of a Victor('s)ia's Secret Outfitter seeking to profit off player's magical panty raids.
Should this be a season only mechanic?

Despite the challenges laid out above I believe an incentive structure similar to this would create near endless opportunities for character build exploration, allow players to create truly unique characters while working in the confines of current set design, aversion to perceived loss of power and KC's finely honed Occam's Razor.

With a presence on the front page I believe it will also bring donations into the server not just from new players wanting to try out the current sets but also from entrenched players who are looking for something interesting to do with their hoard of odds and ends with no home.


1. Subjective design philosophy has been a problem since the beginning due to lack of development of feats that represent tools already available to casters.
2. Subjective design in item rewards continues to be a problem for martials in an attempt to rectify this lack of development.
3. Despite the class and encounter design imbalances I've outlined, I am not advocating for any nerfs. Only slight buffs to combat endurance and lethality for martials as a handle on item design.
4. Focus should be on creating feats characters and encounter designers can use to create adequate challenges.
5. Proposal for an alternative item system that provides an outlet for players who seek to challenge themselves with new character builds. Current item sets remain the default best option for the defenses, immunities, saves and damage boosts they provide.

Posts: 479

Re: Munchkin Manifesto - Part 3

Post#2 » Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:07 am

Tell me you can’t read the room, without telling me you can’t read the room.

Posts: 18

Re: Munchkin Manifesto - Part 3

Post#3 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:55 am

adam wrote:Tell me you can’t read the room, without telling me you can’t read the room.

Thanks for chiming in as a representative of the room.

Can you offer me any insight to your perspective as a DM on the problems I've laid out above?
Considering you haven't ran an event since 2017 the only thing I can see from your perspective are the people who are turning the knobs are unaware or don't really care about the ramifications of their experiments.

Be more afraid of boring your players then challenging them

Making mistakes is forgivable, but turning mistakes into what has happened with arcanes and martials is just boring .

Posts: 17

Re: Munchkin Manifesto - Part 3

Post#4 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:13 pm

"Considering you haven't ran an event since 2017 "
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Posts: 18

Re: Munchkin Manifesto - Part 3

Post#5 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:47 pm

Amar0r wrote:"Considering you haven't ran an event since 2017 "
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm not trying to stir up drama by pointing that out. We all have limited time to and desire to pursue the things that interest and challenge us. Developers especially.

I do not want this to devolve into nerds wasping at each other about how they spend their time.

I want to find common ground with people who enjoy this server for its successes and its faults.

I'm merely trying to figure out the perspective of those who see theses differences in challenge design as appropriate and necessary.

Please feel free to expand upon the challenge that might occur for hypothetical changes like these to occur or if they are unwarranted.

Posts: 17

Re: Munchkin Manifesto - Part 3

Post#6 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:56 pm

Hello, I just thought it was funny what you wrote.
Adam, please come back to us :) (not trying to be funny)

Posts: 479

Re: Munchkin Manifesto - Part 3

Post#7 » Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:12 am

Your intentions are in the right place, but you don’t have a clue how change works. Long walls of ivory tower text without a shred of technical implementation….it almost seems like you should start your own server! Don’t worry, I copied all three of your posts and sent them to major mmo’s. You should be getting calls around the clock.

Posts: 18

Re: Munchkin Manifesto - Part 3

Post#8 » Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:38 am

adam wrote:Your intentions are in the right place, but you don’t have a clue how change works. Long walls of ivory tower text without a shred of technical implementation….it almost seems like you should start your own server! Don’t worry, I copied all three of your posts and sent them to major mmo’s. You should be getting calls around the clock.

Asking devs to focus on better tools in the form of feats for players has already been done with the development of Impale/Shield Bash/Shadow Strike/Caster's Bane and Passive Feats like Epic Combat Endurance and Epic Combat Lethality.

Asking them to realize they have all the pieces necessary in there to shore up the massive gulf between arcane casters and martials is the hard part. Martials don't have spellbooks that can effect that much control over a battlefield nor do they have items that increase the effectiveness of that control like Arcanes.

In regards to the random itemzation trinket. Implementing a link between the architecture for the gathering ILR, DM Event Items and a new look up table for a set seems well within the grasp of current development as these are already existing systems that live and working.

If there is any part of these posts you did not fully comprehend I will do my best to find more pictures or videos that can fully illustrate the problem for you. If an unequipped arcane caster killing the highest rewarding boss at the highest difficulty doesn't clearly convey the gap in power difference maybe we can get videos of you trying with a non DM powered martial character to see how far you can get in a rift. Stones on me.

Please feel free to share your insight to the technical problems that we may work them out or think of ways around them.
Last edited by Trufax on Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 479

Re: Munchkin Manifesto - Part 3

Post#9 » Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:49 pm


Posts: 17

Re: Munchkin Manifesto - Part 3

Post#10 » Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:46 pm

I don't understand, an ex (?) dm (long gone) from the server comes here just to be ironic with someone who has some ideas to improve the server.

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